March 24, 2005
Buffalo Soldiers, Part 2: Wherein Max Cavalera, leader of the SOULFLY tribe, discusses his Brazilian roots, the fall of METALLICA, and his personal connection with the movie CITY OF GOD with Josh Jabcuga on a recent tour stop in Buffalo, New York.
Click here for part one of the interview.
Josh Jabcuga, Squib Central @ www.moviepoopshoot.com: Say you’re just jamming on your own, trying out stuff for a new album…is there a point where you say to yourself, “That might be pushing it too far. I don’t know how the fans are going to react to that.” Do you ever feel yourself backing up or do you not care what the fans think?
Max Cavalera: Multicultural shaman behind the music of SOULFLY, former lead singer and founding member of SEPULTURA: No, no, I care about the fans a lot, and I think I’m a fan myself, that’s why. Yeah, there have been times where I’ve backed up. Even in the live show, the one time we tried, we incorporated, I think the idea was great, we incorporated all the four instrumentals, “Soulfly I, II, III, and IV”…we played live, maybe like two minutes of each, but it ended up being an eight minute jam, which I thought was great, and all the people that work for us (said) “Wow, this is great! This is a great part of the show!” But when we played it live, it sucked. You know, it’s like, it didn’t click in. A lot of the fans were not, after three minutes, they were not interested, no matter how interesting it was.
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Josh Jabcuga: But you had to try it once.
Max Cavalera: At least we tried and now I know it doesn’t work. But then again, like, we have the flamenco part with “Mars,” Marc (guitarist Marc Rizzo), when we do that, the whole band does that—
Josh Jabcuga: Live?
Max Cavalera: Yeah. And it’s totally different and it’s really captivating, so it’s just a matter of trying. And if I see it’s not clicking with my fans, I don’t normally use it but…I don’t know, there was a point when it was cool to do that. FAITH NO MORE were probably the pioneers of insulting their own fans, and I thought for a while, Yeah, that’s kinda cool, you know. (both laugh) Sometimes it’s still, if I feel the crowd’s not down, we’ll go and insult them, but at some point it gets a little bit old and you just do it for attention.
Josh Jabcuga: You mentioned “Mars,” and there’s another song called “Execution Style.” Has the war in Iraq and the general conflict in the world affected you as an artist or songwriter?
Max Cavalera: Yeah, I think a little bit, but a song like “Execution Style,” it’s actually based on Brazilian death squads and things that go on…I don’t know if you’ve seen (the movie) CITY OF GOD—
Josh Jabcuga: I’ve actually got a copy of it but haven’t watched it yet.
Max Cavalera: Yeah, you should watch it. After I watched CITY OF GOD and my own experience from living there…and I know about death squads and executions, so I wrote a song about it. It was like (side project) NAILBOMB. I’m not pro IRA or anything like that but I think the music is as lethal as that. So I thought “Execution Style,” the song is as lethal as a death squad, taking care of business, but of course I don’t support that, that’s pretty hard core. They kill little kids and shit like that. But yeah, I think the war, “Mars” maybe it was a little bit influenced by the war, but I try not to do too much so it doesn’t outdate the record. You know like, you listen to the record in a couple of years and you’re like, “Man, maybe there’s not even a war anymore.”
Josh Jabcuga: Let’s hope, right?
Max Cavalera: Yeah, I think eventually it’ll get like that. Like you think about the war with Japan and now we’re friends. We sit down with them and drink sake and get drunk together. And that was completely insane, World War II. Nobody could believe that we would sit down with the Japanese and share a lot of the same things. So I try not to do too much of that so it’s not, the album doesn’t—
Josh Jabcuga: You don’t date it.
Max Cavalera: Yeah, ‘cause I don’t like that. I like the albums to be, as much as they can, without time, uh, you know, so you listen to it now or ten years and it still has a sense of, it doesn’t belong to any time, you know?
Josh Jabcuga: I’m bringing my niece and my nephew, who are young teenagers, to the show tonight. It’s going to be their first real show.
Max Cavalera: You’re a bad influence on them, I’ll tell you right now. (both laugh)
Josh Jabcuga: Well, I want them to see real music. Not American Idol or whatever they’re spoon-fed on MTV, you know. But I find it amusing because, like Ozzy, he had that show on MTV—
Max Cavalera: Uh-huh.
Josh Jabcuga: And a lot of kids love Ozzy because of the show. They see the show and they say, “I like this guy,” never even realizing that the man was in one of the most amazing bands, BLACK SABBATH, you know, who had such a profound effect on so many artists. SOULFLY, you’ve got four albums out now…do you have any fans that, you know, say a generation of SOULFLY fans that have never heard of SEPULTURA?
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Max Cavalera: Yeah. I think with…it’s so mixed up. It’s kind of difficult to separate sometimes. What’s more interesting is the time I met a kid and I met his dad. The dad will be a SEPULTURA fan and you know, I’m thirty-five, so he’ll be about the same age. And the kid is a SOULFLY fan. And I’ll tell the kid, “Go listen to some SEPULTURA.” And I’ll tell the dad, “Go listen to some SOULFLY.” (both laugh) So it’s kinda cool, you know, because the dad will be more into SEPULTURA and I don’t blame him because he grew up with that, but he should give SOULFLY a shot. And the other way around. For the kid that just thinks SOULFLY is, you know, that just SOULFLY is good, he’s gotta go listen to old SEPULTURA, because I was a part of that, because without that there’s no SOULFLY.
Josh Jabcuga: So looking back you’re proud of that work?
Max Cavalera: Hell yeah. We did a lot of stuff. Without SEPULTURA or NAILBOMB I wouldn’t be able to do what I do today because it was experience, year after year of trying new things.
Josh Jabcuga: I heard that the lead guitarist of KORN quit the band—
Max Cavalera: Uh-huh.
Josh Jabcuga: Because of his newfound religious beliefs. You’ve said you’re thirty-five, from what I’ve seen you have a tight knit family, your wife Gloria is your manager—
Max Cavalera: Uh-huh.
Josh Jabcuga: And you kind of keep everybody together.
Max Cavalera: Uh-huh.
Josh Jabcuga: You come across as being very level-headed. How do you maintain this sort of down-to-Earth-ness and still maintain your ability to be a heavy metal performer?
Max Cavalera: Well, it’s a little schizophrenic and I know that. Some people that come on tour sometimes with us and they come back here and I’m sitting here listening to Reggae, you know, very chilled out and then I get up and go to the stage and it’s like (does trademark Max metal growl) and you know the hell breaks loose. And I come back here and it’s normal again. And people have told me, “Don’t you think that’s a little bit schizophrenic?” And I think, “Yeah, but you know, at least I’m doing it through music.” And it’s a lot of stuff coming out of me that wouldn’t come out…you know, music lets me do that. So I think my family and the people that travel with me keep me on my toes. ‘Cause my kids, they are nine, twelve, fifteen…for them I’m not really Max of SOULFLY, I’m just Max the, you know, the dad, whatever, so one minute you have a great review or you have somebody say, “Man, you saved my life through music,” which is great, I feel really good about that. At the same time, it’s like my kid saying, “I spilled Coke in the living room, I don’t want to pick it up.” (both laugh) So I go there and pick it up or whatever you know, so it’s cool. It fucking works for me, you know.
Josh Jabcuga: I think so. Did you happen to catch the documentary on METALLICA?
Max Cavalera: No, no I haven’t. I’d like to. I’d like to watch it, but I haven’t yet.
Josh Jabcuga: Do you think that that’s a band that has maybe pushed their limits too far and the fans reacted negatively and do you think the band maybe lost touch with its roots?
Max Cavalera: I think METALLICA, I feel that they were really on this path, like, maybe to be the most ultimate, unbelievable metal rock band and for some reason they went the other way, you know. And I don’t know. I can’t answer why but I know the lyrics stopped making as much sense. I don’t know, maybe it’s money. Money can do a lot of things like that. Who knows what went on their path but it is not the same band. It’s kind of a bummer because I really liked them a lot and I thought they were, since, fucking BLACK SABBATH, there’s nothing like that, with that level of attitude and intelligence in lyrics. James Hetfield wrote the most amazing lyrics in metal ever. But it’s cool, as long as they’re happy with it.
Josh Jabcuga: Do you think they’re happy with it?
Max Cavalera: Uh, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. It’s just like, I think once you make things like that, albums like that, you have to continue to make those kinds of records or you get depressed, so it’s like once you did Ride the Lightning and Master of Puppets you have to keep up, you know. So it’s one thing for me, I’m kind of glad that I’m in SOULFLY because SEPULTURA was starting to get, you know, people were like basing it on Roots, there had to be another Roots and using that which I probably would have taken the challenge. I wouldn’t have backed up from it. But I don’t know in METALLICA’s case. I think a lot of people wanted them to be more like what they used to be, because they were revolutionary. Once you stop being like that, you know like Satisfaction is the Death of Desire, that’s HATEBREED’s album’s name, it’s great. I think that’s kind of what happened to METALLICA. Maybe they fulfilled all their goals and where do you go from there? And on one end it sucks, but sometimes I put myself in their position, and it’s even maybe more sad to act like you’re still that thing, that kind of guy with the huge, fat bank account. That’s even more pathetic.
Josh Jabcuga: They had a therapist, a counselor, that they would pay huge sums of money, thousands of dollars a month—
Max Cavalera: Wow.
Josh Jabcuga: Just to keep the band together. And I’m thinking to myself, You guys, it’s music. If you’re not enjoying it, then don’t do it.
Max Cavalera: Yeah.
Josh Jabcuga: Go get a job in construction.
Max Cavalera: Yeah.
Josh Jabcuga: Watching that movie, you’re just, you can never look at the band the same way again, or the music. You’re just like, That’s it. I disconnect.
Max Cavalera: Yeah, it’s weird, huh? And it’s sad. It erases a myth a little bit, what they were. They were a myth, you know. I don’t know, it’s hard. It is hard even like for me a lot. What I do, honestly, is just continue to follow the heart. ‘Cause your heart and your gut is all you get, all you have really in the end. And if you follow them in the beginning you should follow all the way to the end. That’s one thing I learned. And all the times I didn’t, that’s when I make mistakes. I looked back and “Ugh, I listened to the wrong people.”
Josh Jabcuga: But it’s experience.
Max Cavalera: Yeah. You learn from regrets. So I learn more and more to follow my gut feeling, even if it’s like, yeah, you’re not gonna sell as many records or you’re not gonna be as popular as you know, some of the label people expect, you’re maybe going to be happier personally than the monetary, commercial success. ‘Cause you know, I’ve seen a lot of rich people and they’re not happy.
Josh Jabcuga: Money’s not everything.
Max Cavalera: Naw. You know, it’s good, but it doesn’t fix a problem, or like, you know, Bob Marley said, “Money can’t buy life.” And if you have a terminal disease, like he had cancer, and he had all the money in the world, and all of a sudden that money becomes nothing, it becomes paper. There’s nothing you can do with that money. It’s not gonna buy your life. I think about that shit all the time. Sometimes I think too much. (laughing) But I think I’m more happy doing what I’m doing now even though I know it’s not like METALLICA, we’re not doing stadiums, but inside I feel—
Josh Jabcuga: By “now,” you mean, as SOULFLY?
Max Cavalera: Yeah. You know, even with SEPULTURA, we never really did anything like that. So it’s always been kinda cool if the struggle is there. The satisfaction is not, I don’t feel like I’ve done everything I had to so—
Josh Jabcuga: There’s reason to get up there.
Max Cavalera: I still get up and get my guitar and go jam because I feel I want to do that. Nobody is forcing me to.
Josh Jabcuga: Would you stop if you ever felt bored?
Max Cavalera: Oh hell yeah. Yeah, ‘cause I can’t pretend. I’m the worst liar to start with. I always get caught. So it would be so visible. I think it would actually be painful in myself, having people look at that and just comment about like, “Oh my God, how miserable can this guy be?” Just see through it. And I do go through phases like that but in the end music is always stronger. I guess I look at things, compare things, music took me out of Brazil. It’s a miracle, you know, compared to all the people in Brazil.
Josh Jabcuga: Well that’s what Ozzy said about SABBATH. He said he would have been stuck in his little industrial hometown but he said heard THE BEATLES, and he wanted to be John Lennon and of course they ended up forming SABBATH and the rest is history.
Max Cavalera: You’ve gotta think, you know, you have to, when you look at a career in music, blah, blah, blah, for me it’s like a turning point. I always look back at where I was when I started playing music in Brazil and the odds are a thousand to one and we overcome—
Josh Jabcuga: But okay, you say the odds were a thousand to one, what was that one thing that said, “I gotta keep trying. I gotta make it”?
Max Cavalera: Well there’s a lot of things there but I think rejection from all the people in Brazil. You know, it was like, our beginnings are very different than what came after. We were the worst band. Nobody took us seriously and were really rejected by the metal community so we didn’t have a place. It was like this thing floating without a place. And I think I took all that rejection and frustration and channeled it into my lyrics, my music. And I still kind of do that today in a different way. You know, on “Prophesy” I sing “This frustration is my inspiration.” You know, it had nothing to do with success. Frustration is a feeling that everybody gets: Rich, poor, black, white. You know, it’s a feeling, it’s a really hard feeling. Some people can’t deal with it. I find best for me to deal with it with music.
Josh Jabcuga: Do you think it saved your life? Where might you be today if—
Max Cavalera: Well, a combination of all that but I think overall, you know like spirituality, and then sometimes I think about life being preordained, you know, it’s like it’s been already set up like a map and everything is already set up no matter what you do. It could be that. Who knows? But yeah, I do believe music in a huge way saved my life because half of my friends ended up, if not in jail or that, real miserable, which I think is even worse than death. You know so I use some of those words like “I’d rather die on my feet than keep living on my knees,” you know, and I see those guys and I think sometimes, Man, I would rather be dead than be like that. So I think about that kind of stuff a lot.
Praise for the writing of Josh Jabcuga, who pens Squib Central with ink made from his own blood, published every Thursday, exclusively at www.moviepoopshoot.com:
“Josh Jabcuga can take the 26 measly letters of our crude alphabet and capture the bi-polar soul of all that is classically yet disturbingly American. Then, when his typewriter is left to cool, he can turn right around…completely ready to trounce any drunk punk that’s got me backed into a corner.” –The Colonel J.D. Wilkes of The Legendary Shack*Shakers.
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